Yad Binyamin, Israel 31/12/2023 - Jennie Milne
The following is a deeply moving interview with Rabbi Doron Peretz, graciously given during a time of great personal anxiety and tension. His youngest son Daniel, 22 is missing, believed to have been taken hostage by Hamas during their heinous attack on Israel on October 7th 2023.
Rabbi Doron speaks as a father, wrestling with the uncertainty of his sons situation, and shares with us the lessons and struggles he, his family and the Jewish people are experiencing as a result of the current war.
Rabbi Doron Peretz, Executive Chairman of the Mizrachi World Movement, and father of Hamas hostage, 22-year-old Daniel Peretz.
Jennie Milne
I wanted to ask you if you could just tell us how you found out that Daniel had been taken, and how things have been since then?
Rabbi Doron Peretz
I think a few things, a few things first, that's a little bit about our background and about our sons. And then maybe some of my reflections, what I think as a Rabbi and as a Jew about what’s happening. Firstly, we actually have four children, two boys and two girls. And we came here from South Africa in 2014.
Nine years ago, we actually ended up coming making Aliyah, moving here in the middle of Operation Protective Edge that was a war then; we seem to have a propensity for coming in at action times, but we came in 2014. We moved to this place called Yad Binyamin. We've been here for nine years. It's a religious community, our boys were then fifteen and thirteen, and our girls ten and six. So today our boys are twenty-four and twenty-two; Yonatan, which is Jonathan in Hebrew and Daniel. They are both going to study in what's called a Yeshiva - you know, religious studies, one for one year, one for two years. They both went to the army, continued, and are both Officers in the Israeli Army. Our oldest son Yonatan is a what's called a company commander in the paratroopers and our youngest son Daniel is an officer in the tank corps, a Commander of a tank. Unfortunately, they were both injured on October 7th, on Simchat Torah. Our oldest son Yonatan, thankfully, was moderately to lightly wounded, shot through the leg and just by the grace of God, he could have been much worse as many of his friends were badly injured and killed. A really big miracle, he left here at eight o'clock in the morning he was with us over the festival and Shabbat, with his then fiancée who is now his wife.
He left at eight o'clock in the morning when he heard something was going on. And he fought for about six hours - he was in the battle with the terrorists. He was shot through the leg, thankfully, if he was shot a centimetre lower it would have hit - God forbid - his main artery in the thigh and if you don't put a tourniquet on within 90 seconds in the right place you can bleed to death. Some soldiers on the first day died of that. So, we're very, very lucky that he missed everything, and he thankfully was able to come home because of the Soroka Hospital in Beersheva. Thankfully he recovered and married ten days later on the date and time that he was supposed to be married. So, we're very, very lucky with him. We haven't unfortunately been as lucky with Daniel - we hope and pray that we still will be.
Daniel was positioned in a base in the South called Nachal Oz, that’s also the name of kibbutz in the south. But there's an army base on the border where he's been stationed for the last five months, and he was there for Shabbat with his tank crew. We know that for a couple of hours he fought very gallantly. I don't want to say too much because he's in captivity and I wouldn’t want anything to get out about what did or didn’t happen, but we do know that he really put his body on the line, and they really fought gallantly and saved a lot of people. Unfortunately, around nine o'clock in the morning, their tank was overrun, and one body was found in the tank, which is that of the loader. His name is Tomer Leibowicz from Tel Aviv. He was pronounced as dead very soon thereafter.
Daniel as the officer and the other two soldiers were missing for three weeks, meaning that we didn't know what happened. If I just take us back to the day, my oldest son who ran out and fought and we heard later in the afternoon he had been injured - he told us that he had fought in the same place where Daniel was based and he noticed that Daniels tank wasn't there, which he thought is a good sign, because many people were killed in that base - it was overrun earlier on by Hamas. Thankfully we thought he is in his tank, he’s okay. By the end of the day, we started getting worried, it’s 12 hours, how long can you spend in your tank? We still thought it might be okay. But the next morning we really were worried 24 hours later. The Army only told us on Thursday five days later that he was - him and two other tank members are considered missing.
Which means that they didn't know anything until today. I mean things have changed, they've got circumstantial evidence but there is a Hebrew word which is Nutak Kesher meaning that we've lost contact, and unfortunately 85 days we've lost contact with him still. We don't have any sign of life or anything, we don't know what state - we know he was injured, and I will speak about that in a minute. We heard on the Thursday from the army that that Daniel and these other two members of the tank are missing. But really my son on Sunday was phoning around for his bed just phoning here phoning there, because he fought in the same area and he eventually got hold of the right person who said to him that they saw the tank and there's one body in the tank and three missing, he asked if that was the body of the officer, and he said no. And he asked what about the others and they said they didn’t know. So, we knew at that point that thankfully it’s not his body, but we knew that he's not safe unfortunately. These were very, very hard moments. My daughter says it's the first time she has seen me and my oldest son cry. I’ve cried at other times but it’s the first time she recalls seeing both of us cry. These were very, very difficult moments as a family to come to terms with - that he is probably, best-case scenario, with Hamas, hopefully alive.
Then about two and a half weeks later his definition was changed to ‘in all likelihood taken hostage’ based on cell phone, all types of different things. The cell phone is not enough - that the cell phone is in Gaza doesn’t mean that the person is - you know it could have been stolen and maybe their cell phones weren’t with them, and their rooms were ransacked. But there's enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that they're in Gaza.
Daniel Peretz, courtesy of the Peretz family.
Unfortunately, about three and a half weeks ago we heard that he was also injured, and there was quite a bit of blood in the tank. So, they did a whole analysis and took DNA and unfortunately the blood is his blood. Thankfully it's not enough blood as well as the contents of the blood, to change the definition. There is still the assumption he is alive, please God, but we don't know what level of injuries yet and it's been really tough, really tough, I think since then it's been incredibly tough. You know, it's hard enough for the missing hostage and I think the knowledge that you know, we've seen hostages who’ve come out and they are okay, and so I think he’s very, very strong emotionally and physically. But I think the knowledge that he was wounded, and we don't know to what extent he was wounded, I hope and pray that all three tank officers of the three tanks that are hostages - all three officers are probably injured, all of them because the officers head is right by the top of the tank so if you're going to come in from the top, you have to get through the officer. So, we just hope and pray that if he was shot, it was just in his left arm and just a light wound, but we don't know. We don't know. But it's been particularly difficult.
There is one member of the tank - not my son - one of the hostages has seen him, one of the hostages who got out. So, it's a sign of life as of about two and a half weeks ago, one member of the tank. She said that just before they gathered before they were freed, they bought hostages from different places in the tunnels, and she identified one of the hostages but it's not our son. So, regarding our son and one other soldier – we have to pray he is alive, but we don’t know. Our assumption is he is, but we just don't know you know what level of injury yet. So that's been our 85 days, it's been quite a mixed bag, because on the one hand, we've got the story of Daniel, which is just very, very difficult. On the other hand, we do have a son who God forbid could have been killed and could have been very badly wounded. And not only that he by the grace of God he survived. He also managed to get married. We decided to go ahead with a wedding together with him and his bride and her parents even though Daniel wasn't there because you shouldn't push off a happy occasion. And how long are you going to wait? how long you know, a month, two months, six months a year, they were religious couple, how long do you push it off for? So, we took the very difficult decision of having the wedding. We cancelled the wedding hall in Ashkelon, there was going to be a whole big wedding, we had a small one here and yet it was very special. Ladies put it together in five days and it was a very, very special wedding and so we've had that on the one hand. And so, it's been a bit of a mixed bag. That's been our reality.
Jennie Milne
That's been overwhelming just to listen to, how have you managed to have the strength to continue with the uncertainty?
Rabbi Peretz
I don't know. I'll tell you what I one thing I've learned a few things from this. Number one, I've learned that we're a lot stronger than we think we are. I think there's a lot of research which shows that human beings are a lot more resilient than we think we are. Meaning the anticipation of things is often worse than the thing itself. We don't think we'll be able to cope with things and we are, there's a lot of research about that.
And I think also that the Jewish people, as a people, I think in the DNA of the Jewish people is the ability to withstand so much pain and challenge. And it's been the story of the Jewish people since time immemorial, and yet be able to …. you know God tested Abraham ten times and each test was harder than the next, and each one didn’t make sense - how does the same God come to Abraham and say to him - promise him that his son Isaac will… you know the Jewish people come from him, and then in the next breath says sacrifice him - say that again? And not only that, but the same God also who Abraham was drawn to because of morality, is the same God that asks him to sacrifice his morality. How do you take the man that you chose because of his morality and ask him to sacrifice it for you? I'm Abraham, I've got all these questions and everything, and so many tests and challenges and suffering yet.
I think in the DNA of the Jewish people is the ability to face challenges and overcome them. I think for me, I feel very, very privileged to be part of a people who have faced so many challenges, the weekly portion we're going to read this week is the servitude of Egypt, how Pharaoh in the book of Exodus forgets about everything Joseph did, and all of a sudden, a couple of hundred years of terrible slavery. There's an expression in Hebrew which says Avernu et Paro, we got past Pharoah, and we can get past anything, and I do feel for me, unfortunately speaking, experiencing what we are, I do feel that the human spirit is just much, much stronger than we think. And I feel that the Jewish soul and Jewish collective experience for me, gives me enormous strength. Because unfortunately, so many people have suffered so much more than we have, it doesn't undermine what we are going through but even just for the families, with so many families that lost multiple family members, for some families with multiple family members taken captive, and not to mention the twelve/thirteen hundred which have been killed, and yet we have a son, thankfully, who was saved, and one we still have hope for. So as bad as it is, it's you know, you have to decide.
Maybe one thing has given me a lot of strength is that there's a book I'm sure you may have heard of it. It's called ‘The road less travelled’ by M. Scott Peck. Amazing, amazing book. There's a psychiatrist who interviewed thousands of people I think it’s one of the best books I've ever read, it’s unbelievable. I opened the book and read the first paragraph and I closed it; I said if I only read that paragraph, it was worth it. I read more of the book but in the opening paragraph he says like this. He says, Life is difficult. Life is very difficult.
Life is difficult, Life is very difficult
M. Scott Peck
The problem is if we if we expect it to be different, it's much more difficult. If you just accept that life is challenging, it's actually not so difficult. I think the problem in life is life is difficult compared to what? I think each one of us has got a paradigm in our head – what do we compare life to? Firstly, comparisons are never healthy, why are you comparing? And therefore, if we think that life is supposed to be easy, then every time it's difficult…. but who said life is supposed to be easy?
And I've come to realise in life, just as he says, I've got so much from this book, he said, Life is challenging if you accept it, it’s actually not so difficult because now your paradigm is not expecting everything to be a walk in the park. And I’ve come to realise in life – what is expectation? Why do we have expectations, who said that you're supposed to expect things? I think we think we expect good health. Why does God owe us something - are we in his debt? So, for me, I think that what I've come to realise in life is that, you know, life is what it is. It is what it is. And I think life is a lot more not only bearable, it's not, it's beautiful, but it's got to be embraced on its own terms. I think sometimes we complicate life a lot by expecting things to be in a certain way and when God doesn't fit into our expectations, we get upset and we've got all types of questions. I think for me, being part of the Jewish people is just looking back at Jewish life.
And just it's been incredibly challenging for the Jewish people and been incredibly rewarding. And, you know, the blessing for me to be part of the Jewish people is not to be a victim. I think victimhood is it's the opposite. You know, I've had to pick one quality and say it is the opposite of spirituality right up there would be victimhood, because victimhood suggests that there is nothing, we can do about it, it’s just the way it is and its totally disempowering.
And Judaism is on the one hand, incredibly embracing of God and that things happen beyond our control. But at the same time understanding that we have to do everything in our power to shape reality. Also, another thing; I still am struggling to see myself speaking like this, if you were to have asked me before if this is how I thought I would have reacted, I wouldn't have thought so. Not that I thought about it, but you know, I don't know where the strength is coming from, obviously from God, from Hashem. I feel it's also coming from the human spirit which Hashem has given us, and the Jewish collective experience and Jewish soul. I also feel a lot of it's coming from the strength of the collective experience of the Jewish people. What I mean by that is that we're not alone in this. Unfortunately, it's a challenge that thousands of families are facing; many have lost their dearest, and there's hundreds of hostages. All of the Jewish people are together and so I feel we are part of something on a certain level historic, meaning I feel we're part of something bigger than ourselves. There's a certain - not comfort -, but there's a certain meaning that we're not alone. And I think also the fact that so many people have been praying for Daniel and for the hostages and that we are connected to so many people in Yad Binyamin, South Africa, all around the world, and now in Scotland. All around the world… (you are not coming here for free - I'm going to start relying on your prayers) ... but seeing that all around the world is very, very encouraging; people doing good deeds in his name, and so I don't I don't feel alone. I think one of the things I felt very profoundly is I don't know how people get through such difficulties if they're alone.
Some people have real, real challenges where they're alone in it…. you know, sicknesses…. I’m not sure what they anchor it in other than faith. Yet I feel for me, this is anchored in faith in God. It's anchored in the human spirit. For me it's anchored in the Jewish experience, anchored in this particular Jewish experience, which has got so many people going through so much difficulty, as well as so many people praying and doing good deeds for us. And so, I don't feel alone. We don't feel alone. I’m also blessed to be very, very, very Zionistic. If the centrality of Israel and its meaning and Jewish destiny wasn't so core in my being, I think I’d find it harder. So, it connects on a deep level as hard as it is, with who I am.
The Kotel, December 31st 2023. Jennie Milne
It's harder for my wife; my wife firstly gave birth to Daniel. And I say it's different because I've never thought about what Daniel wears and what he's eating because he’s okay, you know? we are guys guys, my wife is always concerned – ‘in the army, what is he eating, is he sleeping? He likes the finer things in life, Daniel’. I think that that's already on her head which is number one, number two, I'm like the meshugana, I’m the crazy, I’m the crazy Zionist in the family. My wife’s also deeply connected to Israel but not in the same way that I am. I play a leadership role in a religious Zionist organisation, so there's also that element. You know, she's a mother who's struggling with her son who is let’s say, less crazy Zionist than I am, and also who's less of a public figure. So, I'm also dealing with my wife who hasn't done things like this.
She's dealing with it, she’s got a very, very close friend and she's dealing with it in her way, and I'm dealing with in my way, so obviously this is hard for me to speak, it’s a bit draining, but at the same time, it gives me strength and I'm hopefully giving her strength. So, I think I feel for me, I’ve got these sorts of outlets or anchors, which have given me a strength. I know how hard it is for me - I can’t begin to imagine how hard it is for my wife. I mean, I live with her, but I can see it, it's very challenging, but she's very, very strong and she's amazing. And one of the big things - I think I'm very lucky also that my wife and I made the decision to move to Israel together without any daylight between us, because I think had one pushed the other one on any level, it'd be much, much harder. Luckily, we were 100% together, and that forced us closer together, and not further apart, and secondly, because we are both dealing with this in our own way, it's very important that we remain close and don't drift. So, we work very, very hard at that. And honestly, I always think you know, we’ve been married for twenty-five years, it’s almost like twenty-five years of marriage, and fifteen years as a community rabbi has unfortunately prepared us for this. And I think this is the type of thing that can tear families apart as well.
Maybe one other point, and that is in life another thing I've learned is when you look from the outside into an experience, it's not the same as experiencing it. When I spoke a few weeks ago, somebody said their mother said to them that if, God forbid, the same thing happened to them, she would never be able to go ahead with his wedding without the brother there. And I said to him first, please God, don't ever go through something like this, but I will say to you, you never know because when you look at something from the outside, you project what your feeling - but there's certain experiences that, and I've seen this, you can't fathom how you experience it until you've got to experience it, and therefore it's very difficult - I don't know why I'm calm - I don't know why - I'm not the calmest person who ever walked the earth you know?. I don't know why. I don't know why I'm reacting the way that I am, and I don't take it for granted. You know, this is eighty-five days into it - people have lived with this for years. I was with a man called Simcha Golden whose son was killed but they haven’t had his body back in nine and a half years and it's hard to… you know… so just for me, it's day by day. I'd say maybe one other thing you know, there's a great sage in the Talmud called Rabbi Akiva, a great, great sage, and he was famous for saying that everything that God does, He does for the best. And I don't know if I can say no matter what happens is for the best, I’m not sure if I can say it, but I’ll tell you what I can say here - that whatever happens, it's going to be okay. Whatever happens it will be okay. And I think for me, the thing that's given me a lot of strength with this period is a thought that I've had for many years, but now I feel I have to live by it, and that is we have to make a decision in whose world we live. Do we live in our world or God's world?
If we live in our world... there's a famous German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, he famously said he was a very deep pessimist. Asked why he said there's nothing in science or rational thinking that says things will get better. It's a belief. Is the cup empty or half full? It’s both obviously. Is there anything in life to suggest that things will be good or bad - there's nothing in rational scientific thinking, and all of our attitude to life and our view of life really is a question of faith and perspective and everything. And I think for me, if we live in our world, then it's a world of science, it's a world of rationality, and it's 50/50 – maybe there’s a God, maybe there isn't, maybe things will be good, maybe they won't, maybe there's meaning, maybe there isn't. And in that world, I don't know if things are bearable and doable. And you know, the best Arthur Schopenhauer said is that you can make life bearable, you can’t live a happy life – there is no such thing as true happiness. You can live life in a bearable way. I think nothing could be further from the truth with how the Jewish view is.
If I had to pick another word, the word to me that I think is the exact opposite of what Judaism is about is the word despair (ye’ush in Hebrew) Jewish life is full of darkness and difficulty and challenge and pain and suffering but it's never despairing. It's never ever despairing. I think the existence of the Jewish people, and not only the surviving and thriving of the Jewish people against all odds is the testament that life is good. And life is not only bearable, but life is enjoyable, and we can overcome whatever challenges we have. And therefore, in God's world the world is full of goodness, its full of hope. Good will triumph over evil, and happiness is more prevalent than other things, and gratitude more prevalent than what's lacking. And so, for me, I think we have to make a decision every day to choose which world we live in.
Whenever I get a little bit fearful and think of the future especially, I grab myself, I also think it's wrong. I think of Dale Carnegie who was this famous (Scottish) self-help thinker. He's written a book called How to Win Friends and Influence People. He wrote another book called ‘How to stop worrying and start thinking’ - it's all thing about worrying. And he says in the introduction to the book, 50% of the things we worry about never happen. He says its irrational to worry - first because 50% never happens, and the other 50% - how does worrying help? Worrying can help if it brings you to action or whatever. So, another insight I have come to try and live by is that if you live with worry it means you living with a concern about the future, but none of us control the future. It's God's world. And you are overstepping your jurisdiction into a world that you've got no control over that's overstepping your mark. In the world of God that we live in is a world where the only control we have is of the present and the decisions we make. What will be – we got to do everything on our power to influence what will be - but ultimately what will be, is only God knows, no human being knows what's going to be in any area of human endeavour in one moments time. And therefore, I've also come to, I think that one has to live. For me. I'm trying to just take it one day at a time because that's what we have, is this one day, and I think you step over into the world that we've got no influence and control in, then it's a world of worry and it's a world of concern, we all know these things, it’s not big rocket science. I feel that I if I don't live by them, then it's very difficult to live and function. A great Rabbi said, life is actually not that complicated, it's just that people are complicated, can be complicated. We trip over ourselves. We all know that we should eat healthily, and we should have healthy relationships, and we should live with discipline and failure. I think we all know what we supposed to do. But how do you take something from here, from the rational, to how it should be? That gap is where life is lived.
“Jewish life is full of darkness and difficulty and challenge and pain and suffering but it's never despairing. It's never ever despairing.”
And I think that when you go through something like this, which really strains your life, you have to everyday choose the best possible modus operandi, otherwise it's so and I do feel a little bit fearful, you know, and seeing so many people in our community in South Africa who went through suffering and loss and everything, many of them said, and I learned a lot from it, they said you know the only way they can get through it is one moment at a time, one day at a time - so many people said that. I know the moment I start projecting I’m to stop myself. There is a choice whether you're going to live in fear.
The second and final thing I'll say is that there were two children who were murdered in a cave 22 years ago. I remember because I spoke about it at our son Daniel's bris and he’s 22 years old. They had just found the two bodies. We were in South Africa, and I spoke about it – Yosef Ishrun and Koby Mandell. In the book she wrote (Sherri Mandell, Koby’s mother) called ‘The blessing of a broken heart’ - One of the things that really struck me about that book was how she speaks about you know, just all of a sudden there's this unexpected rush of pain and tears and she said don't fight it. She will see a pair of shoes or something and is just like a wave… I’ve come to see that, when you have that pain just let that flow, it’s like a wave. In the Psalms it says ‘mishbarecha’- breakers. I think they break eventually, no matter how strong they are they eventually break. And I think when a wave comes it's hard to fight it you just got to go with it. But it ends, passes, it flows through you, and it passes.
Northern Israel 2024. Jennie Milne
And the good news is, and I’ll come back to where I started, I think we are a lot stronger than we think we are. And I think that Jewish experience has taught me that life is a package deal. Anything the Jewish life has taught us, and no matter how challenging it gets, we can overcome, we can overcome. That even the name Israel, Jacob’s name – ‘to struggle with God and to overcome’ ...interesting the name is not, if it was who had overcome, it would have been in Hebrew ‘Sarel’. But it’s not Sarel, its Yisrael. Even though it says because you struggled with God and humans, and you have overcome, the name should have been Sarel the one who struggled, but it’s Yisrael, the one who will struggle. I think it's implying that it's putting into the DNA of the Jewish people that there will always be challenges and you will always have to face your demons, and there will always be challenges and always be the Esau’s of the world and the people who are trying in every generation, unfortunately as we say in the Pesach Haggadah, try to uproot, yet we were able to overcome it as we have, and I think we will get through this.
And I really have to run but I'll say one last thing, I'll say is that I think that Hamas and Hassan Nasrallah… Nasrallah is the big mastermind and he's often said he's got a famous theory where he says that Israel is just one big spider web, it’s a cobweb, if you put enough pressure on Israeli society it will fold, and the Jews are weak, and he's got his whole cobweb theory. And I think he made a very, very, very big mistake. I think he interpreted all the arguments politically over the last year, all the elections and all the major challenges in Israel as a weakness - and it is a weakness. But he thought that Israel will fold, and what he's done is brought three hundred thousand Israelis back to Israel, he’s reunited the Jewish people after times of divisiveness. I think he has strengthened the fabric of Israeli society, Jewish society. He’s injured us and we’re limping, and he's hurt us, and he's hurt our family, and he’s hurt many other families, and on a daily basis is causing a lot of pain and destruction, that I think he ultimately has strengthened us and strengthened our resolve and reminded us of who we are. Ultimately, I think the Jewish people are forced to summarise this battle, it's as those who celebrate life against those who celebrate death. Those who through hatred and death cause destruction and those who through love and personal responsibility embrace life. I think ultimately, life is stronger than death and light is stronger than darkness. And our name is Israel, we will overcome, and we will. We hope and pray, and if I can ask you if you could pray for our son…his name is Daniel Shimon, Daniel Shimon ben Sharon. If you can pray for him, we’d appreciate it, to know that people in Scotland high up north there by Aberdeen are praying for him. We're counting on it. We're counting on your prayers.
Jennie Milne
Everything you’ve shared has really touched me very deeply. I understand what you're saying, and we will pray. Is there anything you would like us to do anything more than pray?
Rabbi Doron
I think just to share, you know, we live in a world of such moral obscurity. And it's just madness that we live in a world that the people who were attacked over here and you know, this is a blatant attack, which denies the Jewish people any right to sovereignty, anywhere in the land, and such murder and pillaging and raping - most horrifically - burning. There’s one philosopher who said that the problem of common sense is it's not so common, you know, just to like, articulate when he saw these three presidents of these universities who couldn't say what a three year old should be to say, you know… it’s just frightening, it’s just frightening that people can have such lack of …..they become so clever, but they’re so stupid, and can't say clearly... I just think in a world that lacks moral clarity it's just to try and articulate truths even if they are not so popular, but just to articulate them and to share them. I think that's really important.